questions on power levels..

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questions on power levels..
Tweet Topic Started: Dec 6 2007, 02:06 PM (1,665 Views)
Slade	Dec 7 2007, 07:04 PM Post #16
Posts: 1,029 Group: Member Member #72 Joined: January 7, 2005 Favourite Anime Death Note, Dragonball Z, Cowboy Bebop, Suzuka What Browser do you use? Firefox	lol Don't be sorry
	"There is no right or wrong. Just the consequences of your actions"


* Tyro	Dec 7 2007, 08:51 PM Post #17
Posts: 1,549 Group: Retired Staff Member #1,367 Joined: April 29, 2006	No one apologize for anything. I'm about to unleash a can of own so large that this forum will undergo a state of amazement for three days. Give me a minute.
	My life fell like dew Disappears like dew All of this world Is dream after dream


* Light	Dec 7 2007, 08:57 PM Post #18
Yo Posts: 5,563 Group: Retired Staff Member #2,705 Joined: October 5, 2007 Gender Not Specified Country United Kingdom Favourite Manga The Story of Light the Legend by Cal/DBZF Invasion! by Copy_Ninja	wow this sounds big...



* Tyro	Dec 7 2007, 11:09 PM Post #19
Posts: 1,549 Group: Retired Staff Member #1,367 Joined: April 29, 2006	Quote: You also never find out Nails power level, in fact that LAST powerlevel you hear is Gokus while he fights Ginyu which is 180,000 I disagree. Ginyu’s stated power level came after Goku’s Kaio-ken power level on Namek. Freeza (third suppression)’s full power was stated after Goku’s. Nail’s power level of 42,000, stated by Freeza, was stated after Goku’s. Ginyu (Goku’s body)‘s level of 23,000 was stated after Goku’s. Freeza (second suppression)’s level of “over 1,000,000” was stated after Goku’s. And Trunks’ suppressed level of 5 was stated after Goku’s. Yeah, I’ve got scans. Quote: Piccolo's PL is assumed to be around 10,000 when he arrives on Namek. Considering Piccolo couldn’t do anything to Nappa in a state that was weaker than 5,000, because he’s effortlessly owned by Goku who was suppressing his ki, I highly doubt he’d get roughly 4 times stronger by the time he reaches Kaio-sama, which only required running/flying across Serpent Road, not to mention he was holding back how quickly he alone could reach Kaio-sama‘s, as he arrived the same day as everyone else. Quote: I dont recall Frieza to ever state his power to be 530,000, he only ever says his fighting power is above 1 million. As you can clearly see in the link above, Freeza mentions the number 530,000, and for your convenience, I offer you the Viz translation, plus an extra panel’s worth of translation. Freeza: “I should warn you about my own battle strength, in the interest of fairness. You see, sir, it’s…530,000. But don’t worry. I don’t plan to fight you at full strength.” Quote: Vegeta being at 40,000 may be close, after all, it was 24,000 when Zarbon kicked his ***** so we have to assume Zarbon to be atleast 30-33,000 in power, when Vegeta recovered he easily dominated Zarbon, so his power must be somewhere between 35,40,000 I’ll now go into a longwinded speech about Dragonball differences and how they judge power levels. Vegeta’s power level before battling Goku on Earth was stated by Dodoria to be “barely 18,000”. How do we know this is correct? Easy. Goku’s power level was stated at “over 8,000”. For simplicity’s sake, I’ll list him as 8,200. Goku using the Kaio-ken, a technique stated by the narrator in a narration block to double the user’s power (that’s right; Kaio-ken and the “2-fold” Kaio-ken are the same thing. It’s a common misconception that the regular Kaio-ken increases the user’s power by a factor of 1.5x) would put Goku at a level of 16,400. Vegeta, even before reaching full power was nearly equal with the Goku, but still managed to have a slight lead. So, we understand? Dodoria’s statement isn’t considered incorrect. Next. Vegeta’s power level after receiving an auto-evolving mechanism from Earth sent his power level to 24,000. His first fight happens to be with Kiwi, who’s power level is also practically stated. Kiwi: “I-Impossible…!! Your power…is supposed to be the same as mine…!!” Kiwi was obviously talking about Vegeta’s power before the Earth battle. Therefore, we can understand Kiwi’s battle strength to be “barely 18,000”. Now comes the math. 24,000 / 18,000 = 1.33333333x difference in power. The feats shown in this fight show that this gap is enough for one to be able to out speed your opponent as well as kill them in just one attack (as Vegeta is able to do the same to Dodoria a few minutes later), which brings me to my next point. Dodoria’s power level was stated to be below Vegeta’s 24,000. Even more than that, it’s shown that he’s below even Zarbon. But to know just where he stands in battle strength, we need to know where Zarbon stands. I quote: Zarbon: ”I-It’s probably a malfunction…but the power-counter set to Vegeta…j-just went past 22,000...!” This piece of dialog right here is why so many fans list Dodoria as 22,000. I, personally, see nothing wrong with the listing. It’s one thing to state you’re surprised at your opponent’s battle strength, as they’re usually much lower, but to talk like you’ve just been struck with the fury of 1,000 fists and death is upon you already, that sends messages. Anyway, for this example, yes, Zarbon is 22,000 which places Dodoria lower. Say 20,000? 24,000 / 20,000 = 1.2x difference in power. Yeah, this is still a large difference. Not one large enough that Vegeta easily won the fight, as he was sweating bullets and had to use full effort when holding Dodoria’s arms back, as well as when he killed him with one simple ki blast, but easy enough that you think nothing of your opponent. 24,000 / 22,000 = 1.09090909x difference in power. Vegeta still had this fight in the bag from the moment it began. Zarbon didn’t succeed in landing a single blow, and beyond that, Vegeta wasn’t taking the fight seriously, fighting with a smile on his face the entire time excluding three panels. It’s very clear who would have won the fight. Look at the math. At only 9.1% higher than your opponent’s power, you can easily kill them. Shall we do more math? 24,000 x 1.09090909 = 26,181.81816. Now, why did Zarbon necessarily have to be so strong to be able to defeat Vegeta? But to further my point, look at Vegeta after getting another auto-evolving mechanism from his fight with Zarbon. He guessed that Zarbon would attack him head on not knowing of his new attained power, and he knew he was correct before the fight even began. But he goes ahead and cheats in the fight by throwing sand into Zarbon’s eyes and attacks while he’s defenseless. Even after hitting Zarbon and bombarding him with ki blasts while he’s underwater and stating he‘s getting low on physical strength, he still has a an even brawl with him until he ultimately gains the advantage and kills Zarbon. I wouldn’t even say Vegeta is beyond 30,000 at this point while not using ki blasts. Quote: Also, I highly doubt Vegeta rose from 40,000 to 490,000 after one fight. He didnt keep Frieza at a stand still, all the did was hold onto his arms for a few minutes and powered up, as did Frieza, after that you don't see Vegeta lay a hand on Frieza, he had no chance. You’re right. He rose from around 30,000 to 490,000 after one fight. Keeping Freeza from hitting his face by grabbing Freeza’s hands and holding them back while Freeza tries to kill Vegeta, as he stated he was going to when he rushed at Vegeta, is indeed a stalemate. Increasing his ki during the fight was just the scouter catching up to Vegeta’s now uncorked ki, as there’s no way he would have survived if he uncorked it while holding onto Freeza’s hands. However, Vegeta was weaker than Freeza at that point as he huffs and puffs afterwards to catch his breathe. Picture. And yeah, Vegeta doesn’t lay a hand on Freeza because the hold breaks apart and neither attacks again. Vegeta decided to mock Freeza into transforming into his second state. Quote: Where does it state or imply that Piccolo trained only for 6 days ? I thought he was meditating/training all along. But may be I missed this bit. Okay. Saiya-jin fight - Everyone being in the hospital - 1 day Everyone being in the hospital - Bulma, Kuririn and Gohan leaving for Namek - 10 days Bulma, Kuririn and Gohan leaving for Namek - Bulma, Kuririn and Gohan arriving on Namek - 34 days Bulma, Kuririn and Gohan arriving on Namek - Goku arriving on Namek - 6 days On the first day that Goku left for Namek, about half way through it, Kaio-sama contacts Goku and tells him Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Chaozu arrived on his planet. So that’s 5 - 6 days of training. Quote: To say that Piccolo is lower than 42,000 would actually be an extreme. That puts him even behind Krillin and Gohan ( After power ups by guru + Senzu healing). Being 42,000 would put Piccolo well above Gohan and Kuririn. Kuririn fought very evenly with Ginyu (in Goku’s body) who had a power level of 23,000. Gohan took a ki blast from said Ginyu without even considering it a lethal attack, but still put his arms up to block. If Gohan and Kuririn were 42,000+ they’d be 1.826086957x stronger than Ginyu, thus no need to block any kind of attack. They wouldn’t even have trouble dodging any of his attacks even considering he looked like Goku, which gave Kuririn and Gohan a hard time fighting him. Quote: Even if he combined with Nail, his power level would never reach an astounding figure of 1,000,000 +. Say it doesn’t make sense all you want. It wont change the fact that Freeza stated his power level was over 1,000,000, then powered up to beat up Gohan, and then Piccolo came in and had a slight advantage while fighting him with his weighted clothing on. Quote: Also Z fighters( Tien, Yamcha & Chaoutsu) taking on Ginyu force and Piccolo arriving on Namek happened more or less at the same time with only a few days gap probably. The whole thing on Kaio-sama’s is filler so I don’t care anyways. Quote: All this while Z fighters aren't training rigrously anyway; They are more interested in outcome of things on Namek. I disagree. Until it was time for Piccolo to be wished back to life, both Piccolo and Tenshinhan stated they wanted to be trained, and at a difficultly beyond Goku’s. Quote: During the same time, Tien beats both Burter and Jiece. Both of them had power levels of atleast 50000 prior to dying. Again, don’t care about filler. Even though you list the Ginyu Special Force at 50,000, which is a very good listing, it can’t be proven. We know they’re below 60,000, but above 40,000. They could be anywhere in that range. Not just 50,000 or above. Quote: One would assume that it must have gone up as well. Which means tien had a power level in the range 100,000(min) - 200,000(max) to beat them. Considering that Piccolo was more powerful (also a Namek is stronger than Human being) than Tien even on earth, its easy to see that he was between 200,000 -400,000 at least(even taking gap into consideration) Again, filler. Don’t care. Apart from Goku having the need to be dead to sustain the SSj3 state, no one is stated to be stronger simply because they die. It’s only because Goku’s power is so large in that specific transformation does he require something more than a worldly body to support himself. Quote: Then his power only increased by 6000 after being beaten to near death ? Thats pretty low for a saiyan. Vegeta had learnt to hide his power level so one can't really make a proper estimate. Raditz had a power level of “over 1,200”. Nappa had a power level of around 8,000. Goku had a power level of “over 8,000” at the time. The king of the Saiya-jins was surpassed by Vegeta when he was only a boy, and Vegeta‘ power has increased since then, obviously. I’m pretty sure 18,000 was great for a Saiya-jin. Quote: and his power only goes up from 18000 - 35-40,000 ?? No. “Barely 18,000” to around 30,000 before fighting Reacoom. Afterwards, his power skyrockets. He even makes a statement that I take to mean “I get larger auto-evolving mechanisms when I get closer to being a SSj”. Quote: Mind you he was also involved in skirmishes on planet Arilia. Filler. Quote: But then after Recoome fight, its ridiculous how his power goes from 35-40,000 to 490,000..thats more than a 10 time increase even though the fight with goku was more intense than fight with recoome which lasted only for few minutes. Again, 490,000 was my estimate based on differences. I’m not saying it’s set in stone. Reacoom was also stronger. Like, a lot. Therefore a more powerful beating in a faster time. See it as a plot device if you will, that’s mainly what Dragonball has to be to be any fun to the reader. It’s just people try to make to much of it (like me, haha) and ask why, which isn’t a bad thing. Quote: snip thing about power levels I know this looks weird but this how I think it should have been. Key words: “I think” and “should”. Not to be rude, but when you base power levels on other stated power levels, they make far more sense and don’t just seem like a big plothole. Quote: The power levels stated by toriyama are totally inconsistent and don't make any sense at all. I disagree. I see them as making sense. Quote: Infact all this power crap ruined teh show when they basically killed some good characters like Tien, Yamcha, Piccolo.. Eh, your opinion. Quote: And Nameks can unlock a lot of power by simply meditating. Infact, their power is gained mostly through meditation and concentration. They focus their strength, and search within themselves to find the depths of their power, and try from there to enhance it. Actually, this is what lead to the "super namek" concept in first place. Regardless of how Namekians may appear to only meditate as a form of training in the anime, I assure you it happens much, much less in the manga. I don’t see it as a means of increasing battle strength at all. More like mental training. A way to get stronger, yes, but it’s not how you actually get stronger. Quote: Besides PL increase of 2 times for a saiyan in such a huge period of time(more than a year actually) is not much. More than a year for Vegeta to receive two auto-evolving mechanisms? Not quite. Try about a month apart. Quote: the reason evey site states 530,000 is cause they use a little function called COPY and then another one called PASTE. One website had it, another DBZ fan site appeared and so on. The reason every site states 530,000 is because they use a few things called “read” and then another one called “manga”. One person does it, another Dragonball fan reads it and so on. This only took a few hours, but it went by at the speed of Tyro.
	My life fell like dew Disappears like dew All of this world Is dream after dream


Sam	Dec 8 2007, 02:17 AM Post #20
It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash. Posts: 24,391 Group: Community Admin Member #415 Joined: April 21, 2005 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragonball/Z/Super, Hellsing Ultimate, Naruto/Shippuden, Death Note, Hunter x Hunter, FMA:B What Browser do you use? Mozilla Firefox Favourite Manga Dragonball/Z/Super, Naruto/Shippuden, One Piece, Hellsing, Death Note	Tyro just kicked your arse. Stand down. He is the Almighty Tyro.
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Slade	Dec 8 2007, 04:20 AM Post #21
Posts: 1,029 Group: Member Member #72 Joined: January 7, 2005 Favourite Anime Death Note, Dragonball Z, Cowboy Bebop, Suzuka What Browser do you use? Firefox	Calm down, its just a kids show. Not saying im not impressed by your ownage but still lol
	"There is no right or wrong. Just the consequences of your actions"


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